In terms of the double standard around her success versus those dudes….I think these are just the waters we all swim in, at whatever scale of public success we operate in, and I am
NOT excusing that. I seems like she has been a really public and private advocate for women in her field. But I think part of her tragedy is that she didn’t get the right support to navigate that inevitable situation. Like I would have loved to know what she really took from her relationship with Nora Ephron, but I think part of the problem that was unique to her had to do with her inability (for health reasons) to really get good care, emotionally or physically, until she hit bottom.
As others here have mentioned, I find her lack of good medical care confounding and infuriating. How did they not know her uterus was so messed up until it had to be removed?? It seems criminal.
Like, I have friends with issues like this who were diagnosed. It seems like a few sonograms could have gone a long way if anyone cared to look.
I am so curious to know more about your obsession with Carroll Dunham and Laurie Simmons! So I basically thought her relationship as described was completely without appropriate boundaries but overflowing with a kind of ferocious but laissez faire love that I associate with a certain class of white parents. And so for example I wish they had noticed sooner that she was taking Klonopin in ways that were not prescribed by her doctor much sooner, but loved that her mother screamed at her psychopharmacologist. A powerful display just a few years too late.
For me, who was raised by a single mom who was loving but always had her own activities going on, so I wasn't really her top priority (so I was actually raised by my maternal grandparents), I loved her parents' involvement in her life and their closeness, though it also felt like a LOT. And, Allison, your take seems 100% true as well (i.e. no boundaries).
I am so curious to know more about your obsession with Carroll Dunham and Laurie Simmons! So I basically thought her relationship as described was completely without appropriate boundaries but overflowing with a kind of ferocious but laissez faire love that I associate with a certain class of white parents. And so for example I wish they had noticed sooner that she was taking Klonopin in ways that were not prescribed by her doctor much sooner, but loved that her mother screamed at her psychopharmacologist. A powerful display just a few years too late.
I actually never watched Girls! So I came to the book with a lot of assumptions about her but no real experience with her work. I left the book feeling a bit queasy — like I had just been in a room for a long time with a profound narcissist who was wildly entertaining but completely exhausting.
Her struggles with her mental and physical health were the most relatable part of the book and I had a lot of compassion for the level of pain she described. I also think it serves to spotlight the layers of treatment and mistreatment that she experienced even with all her access and privilege.
Agree, I thought the book took off when we got to her diagnoses and health struggles. And I also felt like wow, if Lena Dunham cannot get healthcare, what hope is there for the rest of us??
She definitely was exhausting! You KNOW that Jenni and Jack have their own version of this story. Also she was being exhausted, though? I was struck by how ill she was, and no one around her seemed to want to accept her like that and kept flogging her to perform.
I actually felt like one aspect of the book that made it drag in places was that she gave *so* much detail to other people to add nuance--which struck me as her trying to be careful and humanizing (and not narcissistic at all). Like, I did not need a mini chapter on each of her lovers, but she seemed to think she owed it to them??
I rewatched the first episode of Girls and it’s so good and like, the “nudity” that was made so much of is so mild and basically tasteful?
In retrospect there was so much slut shaming of Lena Dunham. I think she was hated for not acting and looking (traditionally thin and hot) like a young woman is “supposed to.” We in the West have been trained to expect Hannah, and every female main character, to meet very specific beauty standards: thin, not-tatted, etc. Dunham's perceived audacity to cast herself as Hannah (or: write Hannah as herself) triggered a whole generation of both men and women who might not have been and still may not be able to articulate this if asked. "How dare she?! How dare she put herself into a role that she doesn't *deserve*?!" Many people did/do not see Hannah/Dunham as "deserving," which could explain ironically why she has been so hated and why so many young women are (now) so drawn to her story and body of work.
Yes! And especially a young woman on T.V. Like, how dare you appear in the public eye without striving in every way to meet the beauty standard! The AUDACITY! And then in the book to find out that they were forcing her to eat more and keep a certain weight so that she wasn't just another Carrie Bradshaw. Women's bodies and size are always being controlled in one way or another--cannot just BE.
Yes when I started reading the book someone I know was like, oh isn’t she the self centered white privileged overweight one? And I was like oh you mean Judd Apatow, Seth Rogan, all those other white guys were are supposed to just accept as viable sexual partners because they are white men?
It's interesting what people remember about her. A friend of mine said, wasn't she a nepo baby? I guess because she used her mom's agent initially to get meetings in LA about TV writing jobs (or something)? I said, yes, she used a connection of er mom's, but is that terrible? I got my 18-year-old daughter a job by texting my friend who owns two fancy gift shops. She makes minimum wage, which is good money for someone who isn't paying rent or supporting themselves (she lives at home and I'm too nice/lazy to charge her rent). But it's not that different from how Lena got started (and incidentally I'm hoping my kid gets sick of working retail and goes back to college or finds some other path to discovering what she wants to do long term...).
I also remember thinking that she was a nepo baby, but she's not really? I think this is part of trying to cast her as "undeserving" as others have mentioned.
I will say that part of the reason I thought that at the time was that she had well-connected NYC parents, lived in Soho, went to elite NYC private school, and so she did basically have privilege and connections that are lot like to someone like me from the middle of nowhere. ( I mean Jerry Saltz is her godparent and she was buds with Zac Posen...!)
But was she the child of a celebrity? Definitely not. And what she got noticed for was her own work and creation, for sure.
I never thought about the fact that Adam Driver seems to have received no comments on his body or behavior whatsoever. And he’s the more sexually problematic character actually.
I read the scene where she had to go to a different doctor to confirm her illness for insurance reasons — and he violates her and leads to the rupture of a cyst — on the same day that Ariana Grande announced she would be leaving her tour IN A MONTH to take care of her health. And that made me insane to think about these women who were forced to continue to perform while so seriously ill.
I love how much attention she gives to these relationships in her life, as you point out Lane. I also wish (again because I never watched the show) that she had been just a little curious about those people’s experiences of her. There’s one moment where she says that the fact checker confirmed that someone left a group chat because he her talking about her various serious health issues, but I think that’s the only moment that we have direct confirmation of how others perceived here. And I 1) thought it was hilarious that there was a fact checker at all but 2) wish there had been more outside voices woven in to confirm her experience
“They resented Dunham because they felt the way she was analyzed and torn apart for her every perceived misstep and embarrassment made them look bad in a way. It reminded the young women in my classes that any young woman trying to succeed anywhere can be picked apart and made a laughing stock—proof that young women are embarrassing, undeserving, and can’t do anything right.”
This is an under-discussed point in all the post-Famesick discourse but feels deeply accurate!
Aw thank you! I also have to include myself in this camp. How often have I joined in public derision toward a woman bc I want to be different, “not that kind of girl”?
“Everything that is unconscious in ourselves we discover in our neighbour, and we treat him accordingly.” Apparently Carl Jung read NYMag Girls recaps as much as I did back in the day
Here is my confession to being sucked into society's messed up body standards for women. As I've been watching Girls, I keep looking for Hannah to start looking unusually thin as Lena described herself when she was getting really sick starting in season 2. Well, guess what? Our standards are so messed up I couldn't see it because Lena meant she was unhealthily thin compared to her typical body size when she was getting sicker, and compared to the other Girls characters she's always kind of soft and pudgy because she has a different body type from them. These unrealistic/unfair standards are always lurking, even when we try to fight them.
Where to start?! Thanks for setting us up with discussion points, Lane! Here aer my thoughts. I also listened to Lena Dunham's interviews with Amy Poehler and Rachel Martin (on their respective podcasts) in advance of the book's release, so some of my thoughts are colored by these. I find Lena remarkable. Anyway...
1. Early success and double-standard for women: The shortest answer to why she got so much blowback is that she’s a successful woman who at the time was young and inexperienced (so that made her an easy target) AND didn’t follow societal norms of what success looks and sounds like: She’s not “hot” but she dresses in hot girl outfits and gets naked a LOT. She’s smart and funny, and she’s also neurotic and annoying and gets herself into all kinds of messes mostly with men. Note also that I’m 100% sure that Lena was perceived as Hannah even though Hannah is a fictional character. I found it interesting that she didn’t plan to act in Girls initially, but Judd Apatow and Jenni Konner suggested it when it looked like none of the actors who read for the part were the right fit (and it seems that anything Judd and Jenni suggested ended up happening).
2. Intimate relationships: I found her friendship with Jenni most distressing because of the co-dependency and the fact that Jenni came out in a more powerful position in the end, though of course you could also just chalk that up to the fact that it was “business.” I also found it interesting that Lena doesn’t seem as bitter or accusatory toward Jenni as I think I’d be if I were Lena. Lena is remarkably un-bitter and never directly said, Jenni fucked me over (though, as I see it, she did. Jenni was the adult in the relationship and should have known better). Clearly Lena has done enough therapy to have created a healthy sense of self she can separate from her youthful behavior and thoughts. And, like Hannah, she’s not afraid to show us the messy, cringey stuff because it’s part of her process of self-discovery. I cringed a LOT reading these sections (especially her relationship with the musician and the earlier one with the guy who had a drug problem), but not in a judgmental way, more in awe of her ability to reveal stuff that most people would keep private. Yes, that sells books, so there’s a material reward, but I still think it was brave.
3. Health struggles: She did young women with health struggles a service here (for all that’s worth which is maybe a few cents), and also shined a very glaring light on how professional women with health struggles are treated—and expected to just carry on, even when your internal organs are literally falling out of you. FFS—even her closest female colleague, Jenni, wasn’t giving her any grace in that department. So maybe I retract what I said about her not being bitter toward Jenni: Telling the story of that relationship publicly is probably Lena’s way of getting even, even though I think Lena really tried to be fair about it. As fair as one can be recounting how someone she really loved essentially betrayed her.
4. Family dynamics. I loved this part! Lena’s relationship with her brother, Cyrus, especially, but also her parents, who are definitely over-involved in her life, BUT who are we to judge and in fairness we have to remember how young she was. This is another area where I think she did a good job telling the story without blaming or making excuses. I follow Laurie Simmons on IG now because she is quite something. I find it remarkable how accepting Laurie and Carroll are of their children. So heart-warming.
Regarding Jenni: There's a lot to say about this relationship. I'm sure Jenni has her own story and was under TREMENDOUS pressure to be Lena's "handler" and pull it all together. It was a huge job and unpleasant. It would have been more healthy maybe if they weren't friends. I think it's interesting that the friendships in Girls get toxic and involve betrayal and that's what was happening bw the writers/creators in real time! There are times I feel for Jenni, because she is also in an impossible situation and is a woman in Hollywood who I'm sure also is one failure away from being dismissed. It also feels like she treated Lena pretty shitty at times, and especially in the end it felt like she was just using her.
Also regarding Laurie Simmons, I love her. Her art seems so fearless and feminist (I fangirled her a bit after reading Lena's first book which has an incredible essay about her and her photographs).
The part where she reads Lena's Tiny Furniture script and is like, "this is good." And then calls all her friends to make the film and agrees to BE in the film? Which basically starts her daughter's career? OBSESSED.
This part: "not “hot” but she dresses in hot girl outfits and gets naked a LOT. She’s smart and funny, and she’s also neurotic and annoying." I think this is all it takes for the public to hate a woman, unfortunately! Meanwhile, as someone else here mentioned, Seth Rogan and every other slacker dude actor just become beloved for the same attributes, basically.
I also found the Jenni relationship upsetting, because obviously Lena had so much more on the line. I could see how it happened and maybe felt justified at the time, but ooof. There's a line early in the book "no one in LA wants to be your friend." That sure turned out to be true.
I came to this book with very little knowledge of Lena Dunham, I knew of her but had never watched Girls or read her other book. I read her substack and vaguely knew of her being part of Taylor Swift’s squad and being with Jack Antonoff who I only knew as Taylor’s music producer.
Now I think I could like Girls and should watch it in my late 30s, I think it will read so differently to me now, I think 2012 me was very eager to prove myself not like other girls and by the time the show ended I had a kid and it never occurred to me to watch it.
The health issues make me so upset, but I never got an ultrasound until I was pregnant and that’s how I found out I had fibroids so it doesn’t surprise me that even a famous woman would have issues being believed by medical staff. Her treatment was horrific.
I remember that Vogue shoot, I was obsessed with that dress. The drama about her body has always been over the top and looking back I can’t believe how horrible everyone was that she dared to write her character as having a lot of sex just because she didn’t fit the typical thin and hot narrative. I had a lot of friends with various body sizes in our 20s and we were all having a lot of sex, rings true to me!
"she dared to write her character as having a lot of sex just because she didn’t fit the typical thin and hot narrative." I think this is what started the hate, in a nutshell!
I’ve been a big fan since Girls first came out, and I’m glad to see (some of) our culture reckoning with how terribly we treated her. I think she’s a very astute and culturally attuned writer. I think maybe part of the backlash she has received is in response to people treating her as a celebrity rather than a writer and, of course, being a woman whose body subverts expectations. She has said dumb things, for sure. Regrettable things! But I also think her work has had an important cultural impact. I have so many thoughts about this book and about LD (clearly)! Lastly, I think she was very nuanced and treated most relationships in the book with a type of care that also shows her mistakes in each relationship.
She has totally said regrettable things. The thing that kills me, though, is all the men in Hollywood who have actually DONE heinous, horrible things, and receive a pass while women like Dunham get raked over the coals. Justin Baldoni comes to mind, for one.
And agree, she is pissed at Jenni haha. I will say that the part where she and Jack go on a trip to the Maldives and it turns into a whole circus AGAIN because she planned poorly and gets sick again and they have to emergency rush home was where I was like, Jack (and probably Jenni) did really love her. Because this is nonstop not fun crisis management and they hung in there for a while.
Ofc, it's not Lena's fault she's sick. But she's also not real put together and young and immature sometimes, and it's ok to be worn out by all that she's putting out, too. Both things can be true, I think! I thought she did a good job trying to capture most of that nuance.
I found her health care experiences so troubling. Why was she never diagnosed? Why didn't anyone follow up on her symptoms, even after multiple surgeries?
How on earth was it that they didn't know that her uterus was so diseased (for lack of a better term), and that it was highly abnormal (septum running through the middle, essentially two organs fused together it sounds like), even after so many years and doctor visits? I am not an expert but this seems like something some follow-up sonograms and tests could have easily detected.
It really made me despair for women's healthcare. The part where that random doctor forces a pelvic exam and injures her is so upsetting and violating. If this can happen to a famous woman, what does that mean is happening to ordinary women every day?
The scene where the doctor violates her reminded me of the scene in Fleishmann is in Trouble where the doctor violates Claire Diane’s character (I think strips her membranes when she is screaming not to?) and it send her character over the edge.
This was INSANE to me. When I was pregnant I had like 1,0000 sonograms. Why did they never take a close took at her uterus until she had it TAKEN OUT. Maddening.
Her begging for her uterus to be taken out because it's causing agony for years, and the refusal of doctors to do it or even investigate the cause of the pain was horrible. Like adjacent to abortion rights where you have no control of your body just because you're a woman.
In terms of the double standard around her success versus those dudes….I think these are just the waters we all swim in, at whatever scale of public success we operate in, and I am
NOT excusing that. I seems like she has been a really public and private advocate for women in her field. But I think part of her tragedy is that she didn’t get the right support to navigate that inevitable situation. Like I would have loved to know what she really took from her relationship with Nora Ephron, but I think part of the problem that was unique to her had to do with her inability (for health reasons) to really get good care, emotionally or physically, until she hit bottom.
As others here have mentioned, I find her lack of good medical care confounding and infuriating. How did they not know her uterus was so messed up until it had to be removed?? It seems criminal.
Like, I have friends with issues like this who were diagnosed. It seems like a few sonograms could have gone a long way if anyone cared to look.
I am so curious to know more about your obsession with Carroll Dunham and Laurie Simmons! So I basically thought her relationship as described was completely without appropriate boundaries but overflowing with a kind of ferocious but laissez faire love that I associate with a certain class of white parents. And so for example I wish they had noticed sooner that she was taking Klonopin in ways that were not prescribed by her doctor much sooner, but loved that her mother screamed at her psychopharmacologist. A powerful display just a few years too late.
Ha, maybe this is a projection of what I want, but I saw their care of her as so long suffering and loving. Like I wish that everyone had that.
Or maybe I just love the idea of being able to return to your parents’ house forever 🤷♀️
For me, who was raised by a single mom who was loving but always had her own activities going on, so I wasn't really her top priority (so I was actually raised by my maternal grandparents), I loved her parents' involvement in her life and their closeness, though it also felt like a LOT. And, Allison, your take seems 100% true as well (i.e. no boundaries).
I am so curious to know more about your obsession with Carroll Dunham and Laurie Simmons! So I basically thought her relationship as described was completely without appropriate boundaries but overflowing with a kind of ferocious but laissez faire love that I associate with a certain class of white parents. And so for example I wish they had noticed sooner that she was taking Klonopin in ways that were not prescribed by her doctor much sooner, but loved that her mother screamed at her psychopharmacologist. A powerful display just a few years too late.
I just spent 45 minutes talking about this book with a friend! And have so many thoughts about these questions.
I actually never watched Girls! So I came to the book with a lot of assumptions about her but no real experience with her work. I left the book feeling a bit queasy — like I had just been in a room for a long time with a profound narcissist who was wildly entertaining but completely exhausting.
Her struggles with her mental and physical health were the most relatable part of the book and I had a lot of compassion for the level of pain she described. I also think it serves to spotlight the layers of treatment and mistreatment that she experienced even with all her access and privilege.
Agree, I thought the book took off when we got to her diagnoses and health struggles. And I also felt like wow, if Lena Dunham cannot get healthcare, what hope is there for the rest of us??
True true!
She definitely was exhausting! You KNOW that Jenni and Jack have their own version of this story. Also she was being exhausted, though? I was struck by how ill she was, and no one around her seemed to want to accept her like that and kept flogging her to perform.
I actually felt like one aspect of the book that made it drag in places was that she gave *so* much detail to other people to add nuance--which struck me as her trying to be careful and humanizing (and not narcissistic at all). Like, I did not need a mini chapter on each of her lovers, but she seemed to think she owed it to them??
I rewatched the first episode of Girls and it’s so good and like, the “nudity” that was made so much of is so mild and basically tasteful?
In retrospect there was so much slut shaming of Lena Dunham. I think she was hated for not acting and looking (traditionally thin and hot) like a young woman is “supposed to.” We in the West have been trained to expect Hannah, and every female main character, to meet very specific beauty standards: thin, not-tatted, etc. Dunham's perceived audacity to cast herself as Hannah (or: write Hannah as herself) triggered a whole generation of both men and women who might not have been and still may not be able to articulate this if asked. "How dare she?! How dare she put herself into a role that she doesn't *deserve*?!" Many people did/do not see Hannah/Dunham as "deserving," which could explain ironically why she has been so hated and why so many young women are (now) so drawn to her story and body of work.
Yes! And especially a young woman on T.V. Like, how dare you appear in the public eye without striving in every way to meet the beauty standard! The AUDACITY! And then in the book to find out that they were forcing her to eat more and keep a certain weight so that she wasn't just another Carrie Bradshaw. Women's bodies and size are always being controlled in one way or another--cannot just BE.
Yes when I started reading the book someone I know was like, oh isn’t she the self centered white privileged overweight one? And I was like oh you mean Judd Apatow, Seth Rogan, all those other white guys were are supposed to just accept as viable sexual partners because they are white men?
GIRL YES!! 🎯 🎯
It's interesting what people remember about her. A friend of mine said, wasn't she a nepo baby? I guess because she used her mom's agent initially to get meetings in LA about TV writing jobs (or something)? I said, yes, she used a connection of er mom's, but is that terrible? I got my 18-year-old daughter a job by texting my friend who owns two fancy gift shops. She makes minimum wage, which is good money for someone who isn't paying rent or supporting themselves (she lives at home and I'm too nice/lazy to charge her rent). But it's not that different from how Lena got started (and incidentally I'm hoping my kid gets sick of working retail and goes back to college or finds some other path to discovering what she wants to do long term...).
I also remember thinking that she was a nepo baby, but she's not really? I think this is part of trying to cast her as "undeserving" as others have mentioned.
I will say that part of the reason I thought that at the time was that she had well-connected NYC parents, lived in Soho, went to elite NYC private school, and so she did basically have privilege and connections that are lot like to someone like me from the middle of nowhere. ( I mean Jerry Saltz is her godparent and she was buds with Zac Posen...!)
But was she the child of a celebrity? Definitely not. And what she got noticed for was her own work and creation, for sure.
I never thought about the fact that Adam Driver seems to have received no comments on his body or behavior whatsoever. And he’s the more sexually problematic character actually.
Not to mention that Adam's character was effed up on a few fronts.
Yes, like abusive actually, as I remember.
💯 He was mean and insane one minute and sweet the next. Textbook coercive control much?
Definitely--the idea of what makes a woman "deserving" of fame and the right to be seen had everything to do with the public reaction to her.
I guess women have to earn every. little. thing. Otherwise it's nepotism or some other way of achieving a goal that was unearned/unwarranted.
I read the scene where she had to go to a different doctor to confirm her illness for insurance reasons — and he violates her and leads to the rupture of a cyst — on the same day that Ariana Grande announced she would be leaving her tour IN A MONTH to take care of her health. And that made me insane to think about these women who were forced to continue to perform while so seriously ill.
I love how much attention she gives to these relationships in her life, as you point out Lane. I also wish (again because I never watched the show) that she had been just a little curious about those people’s experiences of her. There’s one moment where she says that the fact checker confirmed that someone left a group chat because he her talking about her various serious health issues, but I think that’s the only moment that we have direct confirmation of how others perceived here. And I 1) thought it was hilarious that there was a fact checker at all but 2) wish there had been more outside voices woven in to confirm her experience
“They resented Dunham because they felt the way she was analyzed and torn apart for her every perceived misstep and embarrassment made them look bad in a way. It reminded the young women in my classes that any young woman trying to succeed anywhere can be picked apart and made a laughing stock—proof that young women are embarrassing, undeserving, and can’t do anything right.”
This is an under-discussed point in all the post-Famesick discourse but feels deeply accurate!
Aw thank you! I also have to include myself in this camp. How often have I joined in public derision toward a woman bc I want to be different, “not that kind of girl”?
Which is the title of her first book, btw!
“Everything that is unconscious in ourselves we discover in our neighbour, and we treat him accordingly.” Apparently Carl Jung read NYMag Girls recaps as much as I did back in the day
Here is my confession to being sucked into society's messed up body standards for women. As I've been watching Girls, I keep looking for Hannah to start looking unusually thin as Lena described herself when she was getting really sick starting in season 2. Well, guess what? Our standards are so messed up I couldn't see it because Lena meant she was unhealthily thin compared to her typical body size when she was getting sicker, and compared to the other Girls characters she's always kind of soft and pudgy because she has a different body type from them. These unrealistic/unfair standards are always lurking, even when we try to fight them.
Agree. Shame for one woman serves to shame all women. That's a feature, not a bug.
Where to start?! Thanks for setting us up with discussion points, Lane! Here aer my thoughts. I also listened to Lena Dunham's interviews with Amy Poehler and Rachel Martin (on their respective podcasts) in advance of the book's release, so some of my thoughts are colored by these. I find Lena remarkable. Anyway...
1. Early success and double-standard for women: The shortest answer to why she got so much blowback is that she’s a successful woman who at the time was young and inexperienced (so that made her an easy target) AND didn’t follow societal norms of what success looks and sounds like: She’s not “hot” but she dresses in hot girl outfits and gets naked a LOT. She’s smart and funny, and she’s also neurotic and annoying and gets herself into all kinds of messes mostly with men. Note also that I’m 100% sure that Lena was perceived as Hannah even though Hannah is a fictional character. I found it interesting that she didn’t plan to act in Girls initially, but Judd Apatow and Jenni Konner suggested it when it looked like none of the actors who read for the part were the right fit (and it seems that anything Judd and Jenni suggested ended up happening).
2. Intimate relationships: I found her friendship with Jenni most distressing because of the co-dependency and the fact that Jenni came out in a more powerful position in the end, though of course you could also just chalk that up to the fact that it was “business.” I also found it interesting that Lena doesn’t seem as bitter or accusatory toward Jenni as I think I’d be if I were Lena. Lena is remarkably un-bitter and never directly said, Jenni fucked me over (though, as I see it, she did. Jenni was the adult in the relationship and should have known better). Clearly Lena has done enough therapy to have created a healthy sense of self she can separate from her youthful behavior and thoughts. And, like Hannah, she’s not afraid to show us the messy, cringey stuff because it’s part of her process of self-discovery. I cringed a LOT reading these sections (especially her relationship with the musician and the earlier one with the guy who had a drug problem), but not in a judgmental way, more in awe of her ability to reveal stuff that most people would keep private. Yes, that sells books, so there’s a material reward, but I still think it was brave.
3. Health struggles: She did young women with health struggles a service here (for all that’s worth which is maybe a few cents), and also shined a very glaring light on how professional women with health struggles are treated—and expected to just carry on, even when your internal organs are literally falling out of you. FFS—even her closest female colleague, Jenni, wasn’t giving her any grace in that department. So maybe I retract what I said about her not being bitter toward Jenni: Telling the story of that relationship publicly is probably Lena’s way of getting even, even though I think Lena really tried to be fair about it. As fair as one can be recounting how someone she really loved essentially betrayed her.
4. Family dynamics. I loved this part! Lena’s relationship with her brother, Cyrus, especially, but also her parents, who are definitely over-involved in her life, BUT who are we to judge and in fairness we have to remember how young she was. This is another area where I think she did a good job telling the story without blaming or making excuses. I follow Laurie Simmons on IG now because she is quite something. I find it remarkable how accepting Laurie and Carroll are of their children. So heart-warming.
Thank you for this thoughtful take! Fun to read.
Regarding Jenni: There's a lot to say about this relationship. I'm sure Jenni has her own story and was under TREMENDOUS pressure to be Lena's "handler" and pull it all together. It was a huge job and unpleasant. It would have been more healthy maybe if they weren't friends. I think it's interesting that the friendships in Girls get toxic and involve betrayal and that's what was happening bw the writers/creators in real time! There are times I feel for Jenni, because she is also in an impossible situation and is a woman in Hollywood who I'm sure also is one failure away from being dismissed. It also feels like she treated Lena pretty shitty at times, and especially in the end it felt like she was just using her.
Also regarding Laurie Simmons, I love her. Her art seems so fearless and feminist (I fangirled her a bit after reading Lena's first book which has an incredible essay about her and her photographs).
The part where she reads Lena's Tiny Furniture script and is like, "this is good." And then calls all her friends to make the film and agrees to BE in the film? Which basically starts her daughter's career? OBSESSED.
This part: "not “hot” but she dresses in hot girl outfits and gets naked a LOT. She’s smart and funny, and she’s also neurotic and annoying." I think this is all it takes for the public to hate a woman, unfortunately! Meanwhile, as someone else here mentioned, Seth Rogan and every other slacker dude actor just become beloved for the same attributes, basically.
I also found the Jenni relationship upsetting, because obviously Lena had so much more on the line. I could see how it happened and maybe felt justified at the time, but ooof. There's a line early in the book "no one in LA wants to be your friend." That sure turned out to be true.
Too true. Too true. Why I'm happy not to be a public figure as I have many supremely unlikable qualities.
Honestly this is one of many reasons I adore being middle aged. Zero f---s to give anymore about not being hot (or cool).
I came to this book with very little knowledge of Lena Dunham, I knew of her but had never watched Girls or read her other book. I read her substack and vaguely knew of her being part of Taylor Swift’s squad and being with Jack Antonoff who I only knew as Taylor’s music producer.
Now I think I could like Girls and should watch it in my late 30s, I think it will read so differently to me now, I think 2012 me was very eager to prove myself not like other girls and by the time the show ended I had a kid and it never occurred to me to watch it.
The health issues make me so upset, but I never got an ultrasound until I was pregnant and that’s how I found out I had fibroids so it doesn’t surprise me that even a famous woman would have issues being believed by medical staff. Her treatment was horrific.
I remember that Vogue shoot, I was obsessed with that dress. The drama about her body has always been over the top and looking back I can’t believe how horrible everyone was that she dared to write her character as having a lot of sex just because she didn’t fit the typical thin and hot narrative. I had a lot of friends with various body sizes in our 20s and we were all having a lot of sex, rings true to me!
"she dared to write her character as having a lot of sex just because she didn’t fit the typical thin and hot narrative." I think this is what started the hate, in a nutshell!
Love this for you and your friends: I had a lot of friends with various body sizes in our 20s and we were all having a lot of sex, rings true to me!
And yes, ofc this is true in real life, why do we hate a woman publicly for it makes no sense but also of course.
I’ve been a big fan since Girls first came out, and I’m glad to see (some of) our culture reckoning with how terribly we treated her. I think she’s a very astute and culturally attuned writer. I think maybe part of the backlash she has received is in response to people treating her as a celebrity rather than a writer and, of course, being a woman whose body subverts expectations. She has said dumb things, for sure. Regrettable things! But I also think her work has had an important cultural impact. I have so many thoughts about this book and about LD (clearly)! Lastly, I think she was very nuanced and treated most relationships in the book with a type of care that also shows her mistakes in each relationship.
Except Jenni. She’s still pissed at Jenni, haha.
She has totally said regrettable things. The thing that kills me, though, is all the men in Hollywood who have actually DONE heinous, horrible things, and receive a pass while women like Dunham get raked over the coals. Justin Baldoni comes to mind, for one.
It's chilling, actually.
Oh for sure! Even in her world— like Adam driver has done scary things and no one puts him under a microscope. He’s just a cool, moody guy.
And agree, she is pissed at Jenni haha. I will say that the part where she and Jack go on a trip to the Maldives and it turns into a whole circus AGAIN because she planned poorly and gets sick again and they have to emergency rush home was where I was like, Jack (and probably Jenni) did really love her. Because this is nonstop not fun crisis management and they hung in there for a while.
Ofc, it's not Lena's fault she's sick. But she's also not real put together and young and immature sometimes, and it's ok to be worn out by all that she's putting out, too. Both things can be true, I think! I thought she did a good job trying to capture most of that nuance.
I found her health care experiences so troubling. Why was she never diagnosed? Why didn't anyone follow up on her symptoms, even after multiple surgeries?
How on earth was it that they didn't know that her uterus was so diseased (for lack of a better term), and that it was highly abnormal (septum running through the middle, essentially two organs fused together it sounds like), even after so many years and doctor visits? I am not an expert but this seems like something some follow-up sonograms and tests could have easily detected.
It really made me despair for women's healthcare. The part where that random doctor forces a pelvic exam and injures her is so upsetting and violating. If this can happen to a famous woman, what does that mean is happening to ordinary women every day?
The scene where the doctor violates her reminded me of the scene in Fleishmann is in Trouble where the doctor violates Claire Diane’s character (I think strips her membranes when she is screaming not to?) and it send her character over the edge.
Chilling.
That scene! I have chills every time I think about Fleishman is in Trouble, I loved that adaptation and the book.
I loved it! That scene and so many with Claire Daines are searing.
This was INSANE to me. When I was pregnant I had like 1,0000 sonograms. Why did they never take a close took at her uterus until she had it TAKEN OUT. Maddening.
Her begging for her uterus to be taken out because it's causing agony for years, and the refusal of doctors to do it or even investigate the cause of the pain was horrible. Like adjacent to abortion rights where you have no control of your body just because you're a woman.
Oh and also that she found out about the rare condition she has when a fan wrote to her and pointed out, it sounds like you have this...
Yes, I wanted to hug that fan! Throwing her a life line, basically.