This might be a pivot, but I'm wondering if the HIGH CONTROL RELIGION parts landed for people. What kind of religion do you think Natalie was? Was it evangelical? Evangelicals can you weigh in here??
As a former Mormon myself, I definitely did not read her character as Mormon. The "watching herself" and gender roles and womanhood stuff felt v familiar, though.
Her lack of interactions with religious people and texts seemed strange. Her constant thoughts to and about the Lord and what he wanted her to do (instead of what she wanted) felt spot on.
YES. It was like a cult leader without a following in the "present" or a following without a leader in the "past." It felt unbelievable to me, as a secret lives of mormon wives watcher, that she didn't interact with anyone outside her household as an influencer except to be mean to them at Target. Seeing everyone as competition does not good content and crossover episodes make, duh. Doesn't she need to perform bible study or lead Sunday school?
TBF the character is more based on Ballerina Farm's Hannah Neeleman who actually is pretty isolated? I am also a fan (student? haha) of The Mormon Wives (and former Mormon). But I don't see much overlap with Natalie and MomTok.
It is crazy that Hannah/BF has been so successful without much partnership collabs, at least in the beginning, as far as I know. I think her big collab was just Christian Nationalism, like Natalie lol.
At some point in the text it says she was Baptist (because baptism). But it was confusing because she talked about God a lot like Mormon people do (to my ear. I’m not Baptist or Mormon, but have done a lot of reading and documentary watching about evangelical movements and high
There is much chatter about this with the Mormons I know! But she's definitely not convincingly Mormon. She doesn't talk like a Mormon and Mormons go to church and church things ALLLL the time.
Which...would have been good for Natalie, actually!
I thought Natalie was most relatable when she was at college and not fitting in at all with her (highly caricatured) roommates and floor mates. But I definitely related to wanting my own room and feel like I wasn’t part of the party. I feel like this era was under explored in the book, bc it was the origin story for everything else that came next
Such a good point! It is kind of the origin story. The origin story is trying to compete with other women! I loved that Reena is the foil for Natalie (and all the other Harvard girlies). Like, they are each trying to outdo each other in patriarchy, but in different ways. It's such a good depiction of the ways that patriarchy pits women against each other, and whether you girlboss or tradwife you just can't winnnnnn
So so true. No one was winning. Except maybe...Shannon? Shannon wins, right? It's unfortunate that she has sex with Caleb but I kind of think she and Clementine are the heros. What do you think?
Can we talk about Shannon?? I don't get Shannon. What was her goal? Why the heck would she hook up with someone like Caleb? Was it bc she *wanted to bring them down, or??
Interesting bc she doesn't start out that way! I actually loved that she was like the Gen Z woman who was looking for the third way --she and her friends at Barnard saw the 50's housewife as a fail, and feminism as a fail. She thought Natalie had "escaped" and figured out how to beat the system.
Okay also did anyone else think Caleb was going to turn out gay? Were we supposed to be thinking that because he was never into his wife? Honestly would have been so realistic in such a religious setting and given the shunning of his brothers… maybe that was too obvious of a place for Caro to go but I was kind of disappointed about it!! I really wanted him to be gay. lol
In reality he'd be gay or have some kind of "bad/immoral" (according to the church) sexual proclivity. I never figured out her fixation on his inability to get a full erection ... then we find out that wasn't even true (?). That struck me as weird and unresolved.
clementine is the hero for me. Shannon not so much. I didn’t like Natalie, but I didn’t like Shannon either. Which also reminds me that the scene where Natalie chokes Shannon did not seem remotely sexual to me. Maybe I missed something? I’m commenting in a scattershot way because I’m at a hair appt and have time whole color is processing, but my thoughts are not organized yet.
We haven't talked about the fact that CALEB is the one who creates the scandal that leads to their downfall, but that HIS WIFE is the one who takes the brunt of it.
In many ways this could be read as the story of a successful woman getting "womaned." Or basically, canceled. I found this pretty resonant w the backdrop of the Epstein Files, etc. even though Natalie is also problematic. Thoughts?
I devoured this book in under 5 hours. I could not stop reading. I then listened to the audible just for fun.
As a person, who at one point in my life (circa 2015-19) built a brand/business/image on Instagram & Facebook that allowed me to leverage that into a 6 figure income, I feel like I understood the ongoing internal monologue of how to curate every moment to fit the brand narrative.
It was exhausting in a way corporate burnout could never be.
Eventually the need/addiction/drive to maintain the brand drove me to some really unfortunate decisions, that at the time, felt unavoidable and led to the total unraveling of my life as I knew it.
Do I like Natalie? No. Did I understand her drive? Absolutely.
Wow, thanks for sharing! Could you say more about that? I think the ways that social media reflects/amplifies perfectionism, performance, self-surveillance is FASCINATING and under-discussed.
Even as just a "person on the internet" I sometimes feel like the need to post/get engagement/be in the DISCOURSE is making me into a person I don't want to be. But it feels so urgent?!
I felt like the book started really strongly. I loved Reena as a foil, and it made me excited that the author was going to say something more nuanced than simply: Tradwives = BAD.
But the ending, in addition to feeling rushed, really left me feeling cold. I'm not sure I could detect a coherent take on why the author thinks so many women are drawn to trad-wifery. We never got to see Natalie reckon with her choices, to try and bridge the gap between "offline" and "online" self (which could have been really fertile terrain, I think.).
I'm not saying that Natalie needed to become a better person somehow, because novels don't have to be PSAs, but the sudden POV switch to the daughter meant we never actually found out the ending of Natalie's arc, of how she felt about it all. The ending kind of felt like a word cloud of buzzwords and hot topics: maternal mental health! the ire of influencer's kids! the darkside of social media! There was no detectable take, no thesis the author wanted us to come away with, which I felt was a real shame.
Thanks for being here, and thanks for bringing up the ENDING! Probably easily the most controversial part of the book. Interested to see what others say, but a lot of people I've talked to don't love the ending, or specifically the "twist."
It sounds like you're more interested in the final note/message of the book though, which is such a good question. I found the ending really resonant, in part for reasons that are deeply about me--haha. But isn't that how these things go?
I felt one way to read the ending was that this was a story about a woman who had been "womaned": an example of the public turning against a female celebrity who was previously adored. In this case, largely bc of the failings of men for whom she ofc takes the fall. Ex: Natalie is an ambitious young woman who finds that she married a guy who isn't going to bring in money or status, so she takes it upon herself to do so--she gets the money for the ranch, she sets up the ranch (while doing all the childcare), she becomes a celebrity!! and thereby rescues her family financially.
Then, her husband has an affair, and a scandal that he created brings everything down and her with it.
She's problematic for sure, but she's also in the end an abused woman who has been duped and gaslit in the extreme by her own husband, and whose children are also being gaslit and abused by her husband.
I kind of read it as the ultimate Yellow Wallpapering. And in the end she's the one who goes to prison, to boot.
Also, that's why I found the switch to Mary's pov in her book to be resonant, too. I actually loved that part! it felt like Mary knew both she and her mom had been abused and gaslit. It felt like she knew her mom was deeply problematic, but she knew that they had been through the same thing together and she understood how she came to be who she was. It felt like Mary offered her mother some grace.
Which--resonates so much with me bc often who we blame for the harms of patriarchy is our moms. For not protecting us, for not informing us, for not "winning" patriarchy the right way. For being damaged by it. I cried, actually! I called my mom after I finished the book :)
See, I like your interpretation of the ending, and my point is I'd like to have experienced it from Natalie's POV. Like we spend this whole book in her complicated (in a good way) interior life, and then it switches in the last few pages, which felt unfair! Even if she ended up bitter, angry, and in jail, feeling wronged by everyone but herself, realizing that there was no good path she could have taken even though she did everything right, I would have liked that ending more than what we got.
I understand maybe some authors want to "leave it up to the readers' interpretation" and are comfortable with people coming away with different feelings about the message. But frankly, I hate that haha.
Ha! I get that. I didn’t even think that deeply about the pov switch actually. But it is hard to know what Natalie is thinking in the end this way. And we have been in her head w her this whole time. This is why I love talking to other people about it! :)
Rosie, your comment ties into what I didn't like once I finished the book. While I was reading, I really loved the whole "is this time travel? is she being held captive? is this a reality TV show?" angle. But instead of letting her really grapple with what happened, it allowed the author to sidestep it all. It felt like, "Oops, you thought you'd get to see the characters grapple with what happened to them, but sorry! She's nuts! Oh, well, she deserved it." I got the sense that that "hook" was what sold the book, but at the same time, it was inevitably what kept the book from being a truly deep critique of the various characters' roles and of our society.
Why does Natalie become neglectful and abusive when she had been so focused on being perfect? Why does Caleb suddenly become a sex god once his wife is a confused basket case? Why do all the men around her (husband, kids, father-in-law) serve her madness instead of just locking her up? Or heck, be mensch and try to get her some help? Why don't her mother and sister do anything?
I really found the book intriguing until it became clear that the writer built in a conceit that kept her from having to make her characters face themselves and each other. I'm imagining a book where Natalie has shamed herself and her husband's family, she's miserable and friendless, and Reena turns up both to challenge her and offer her the friendship she wasn't able to accept the first time around. And yes, let poor Caleb be gay. Let him have some agency, the poor puppy.
Excellent story for our times, but the end just goes Hollywood rather than allowing it to become a truly great cultural critique. I'm surprised she didn't find a way to work in a shootout. 😸
SAME! Can you say more about what you related to? I found her striving within patriarchy and trying to be alllll the things relatable, and to a point, even rational? (Obviously it goes way to far!)
I thought Natalie was most relatable when she was at college and not fitting in at all with her (highly caricatured) roommates and floor mates. But I definitely related to wanting my own room and feel like I wasn’t part of the party. I feel like this era was under explored in the book, bc it was the origin story for everything else that came next
Yes! I agree that role of eldest daughter and holding it all together was really well done here. And holding her mother’s secret that then then out to be a lie!
This was one of the most relatable depictions of postpartum depression I've ever read -- at least for my own experience. Those intense feelings of misery, confinement, alienation, disgust, pain, and exhaustion, when everything around you is screaming that you should be feeling blissful and enjoying the ultimate expression of womanhood.
Also the feelings of disconnection and non-belonging, like not ever being able to do or say quite the right thing, trying (and failing) to perform feminine "niceness." And those feelings prompting harsh judgmental thinking about myself and others.
Yes! I thought the postpartum depiction was so goooood. It reminded me of the Claire Daines character from "Fleishman is in Trouble" if you're familiar. Her post-partum and lack of care and medical trauma are her origin story and undoing.
One thing I wondered about Natalie was whether she really "hated her kids" or if she just hated how much of a failure she felt as a mother, so avoided it, given that she didn't "feel the way she was supposed to."
All those chapters of her alone with the baby breastfeeding and breastfeeding while Caleb does nothing and nobody pays attention to her OR the baby. And how that slowly starts to destroy her. RELATABLE.
Yeah! I think it's also possible she just...doesn't like kids or parenting very much? Which is totally fine! But because of all the pressure to perform motherhood that turned into resentment, avoidance, and ultimately abuse.
I thought it was interesting that she was able to connect with Maeve much more easily than any of her other children. There was a childlike, playful side to Natalie that we only glimpsed with Maeve ("let's make hats for the chickens!"). Now that I think about it, it seemed like no one in the novel was ever allowed to just play. Not Caleb, not the kids who needed to perform on social media, not Mary who had to run an entire nineteenth century homestead by herself, not Natalie who constantly had to perform gender.
Such a good point!! "it seemed like no one in the novel was ever allowed to just play. Not Caleb, not the kids who needed to perform on social media, not Mary who had to run an entire nineteenth century homestead by herself, not Natalie who constantly had to perform gender."
And maybe all of it was bc of performing gender? Maybe play is part of the antidote to performing gender altogether?! It certainly is a big part of queer culture!
I like to think the play/love came out as her performance started to drop and she was more present (whether she wanted to be or not!!)
100% agree with everything that you’ve both said about the depiction of motherhood/postpartum. I cried during that part because it resonated so much with me. The love for my babies came immediately but there was still resentment about motherhood and a feeling of being trapped, especially after the first kid. Even though I never would have admitted this to myself at the time in my Mormon brain, at some subconscious level I didn’t feel like I had any autonomy in the matter, which I think fueled a lot of those feelings.
Girl. I often say that my self-righteousness is my most Mormon trait. Can't seem to shake it! haha.
The need to be good or right is so ingrained and manifests in so many different ways. Natalie is mostly trying to do right and be good and win at womanhood, which turns her into a monster. But she's trying so hard!!!!
I’m editing my memoir and I was feeling so emotional about that last night watching past me try SO HARD. And just making myself sicker and sicker. It’s a heartbreaking cycle.
The self-righteous/self-hate combo really stands out. I think that’s a byproduct of the scrupulosity that she and I share. It’s an odd thing to see outside my own head. Absolutely yes, trying to be the perfect version of the patriarchal woman. I was a big patriarchy upholder in my previous life. And then never feeling like she fit in. Complicated feelings about motherhood. So many relatable qualities for me!
The self-surveillance part was fascinating. I thought it was really well done the way she moved in and out of being "on" and off ONLINE Natalie, right, is how she referred to herself? And the ways that tied to the father in law's political campaigns and the "on/off" part of being a public figure.
yes! And the "on off" of being a woman who is constantly masking and trying to perform "correctly." I actually saw this and the "watching herself" as possible disassociating. Which would help explain her later mental decline, too...
In ways that are hard for me to even totally articulate, I feel like I am or have been versions of Natalie (not the celebrity part, or the abuser part, yikes). The realizing that you can't be safe/secure just being a wife or mother. The part where you work your ass off and exhaust yourself trying to hold yourself and your family up by working. The part where you realize you've married the wrong guy. The part where you realize maybe there IS no way to marry the right guy in patriarchy. The part where you realize you're going to take the fall no matter what you do.
The shame!! We haven't even talked about all the shame that all the characters feel because of the expectations of their gender roles!
And yes, the shame is so relatable. Do you mean the shame that you can't make it work as just a wife/mother, or the shame that you'd been duped and ever thought it could?
My mother was so fulfilled by motherhood. That was the only understanding I had of how that worked. So for me it was shock, verging on horror when staying home with my baby had my sanity spiraling. Very heavy evidence of my brokenness. It was my highest calling. It’s what I was created to do! And I loved my baby obsessively. But I was MISERABLE. I only made it a couple months before I tearfully confessed to my husband that I had started sending out freelance queries. I said it like I was confessing to an affair. He was actually thrilled for me so then I judged him. 🤦♀️
Did anyone else think about Running Out of Time by Margaret Peterson Haddix while reading this? I feel like this had to be made for women who read that as kids and then went on to have Deep Thoughts about feminism and patriarchy as adults (i.e., me).
As a very old feminist I am enjoying this conversation about a book I have not read for several reasons: The people responding are so thoughtful and respectful…
The author of this Substack is a wonderful listener and responds with great heart to those who express trouble in their lives… It is “nice” to hear even if indirectly ,that Religion has not caused all the evil in the world. Rev Dr Grandma
I'm curious if anyone else found themselves wanting to better understand why Natalie thought the way she did? Religion, sure. But when and how did she get obsessed with the natural lifestyle of sourdough starter and raw milk?
Right? Though I'm not sure Caleb had it in him to teach a curriculum or handle differentiated instruction or classroom management with an actual kindergarten class.... Maybe a teacher' aide?
Bahahaha. Agree. I don't think Caleb is "smarter than she thought." I think he was just as smart as she thought...hahaha. A mediocre white guy who keeps failing up or getting by at the cost of women around him.
I do wish he could have just been a dad or a (mediocre??) kindy teacher thought. It does seem like he could have been a great dad, if gender roles hadn't beat it out of him.
Yes! And the fact that it's not himself, or a man, that cuts that off for him. It's a woman! The ways that woman also hold up the patriarchy.
But also, she stands to have a total loss of status if she doesn't "course correct" him, which is also relatable and not her fault--it's all the patriarchal conditioning and scripts that she's been given.
This is relatable and is the male equivalent to self surveillance that Natalie does. Playing w kids and doing caregiving for them is not “manly enough.” Then Caleb falls into the manosphere in part bc he’s a dumbass, but in part bc of his shame
I’m not sure about the ending. I need to mull it over more. Was she in a drug induced haze throughout their time in pretend 1800s world? Is that why she thought she had been kidnapped or tricked on a reality show? Apropos of nothing but this just in: Anne Hathaway licensed the rights to produce and star in a film adaption!
I am fascinated and a little worried by the readers who related to Natalie’s inner monologue. For most of the book I didn’t read it so literally as being the internalized control of high control religion or of performing for social media; I read it as the internalized control of fascism. Especially with the mantras and the self imposed thought control, it was very reminiscent of the Handmaid’s Tale (the novel) to me. And how those mantras turn into horror versions of what they say at face value. *It actually made me sick how perfect my life was / blessed be the fruit*.
This might be a pivot, but I'm wondering if the HIGH CONTROL RELIGION parts landed for people. What kind of religion do you think Natalie was? Was it evangelical? Evangelicals can you weigh in here??
As a former Mormon myself, I definitely did not read her character as Mormon. The "watching herself" and gender roles and womanhood stuff felt v familiar, though.
Here to report that Natalie did not do nearly enough Bible study if she’s evangelical 😂
Ha! And didn't go to church nearly enough to be Mormon. Mormons are great at community gatherings. Natalie could have used some of that!!
Her lack of interactions with religious people and texts seemed strange. Her constant thoughts to and about the Lord and what he wanted her to do (instead of what she wanted) felt spot on.
YES. It was like a cult leader without a following in the "present" or a following without a leader in the "past." It felt unbelievable to me, as a secret lives of mormon wives watcher, that she didn't interact with anyone outside her household as an influencer except to be mean to them at Target. Seeing everyone as competition does not good content and crossover episodes make, duh. Doesn't she need to perform bible study or lead Sunday school?
TBF the character is more based on Ballerina Farm's Hannah Neeleman who actually is pretty isolated? I am also a fan (student? haha) of The Mormon Wives (and former Mormon). But I don't see much overlap with Natalie and MomTok.
It is crazy that Hannah/BF has been so successful without much partnership collabs, at least in the beginning, as far as I know. I think her big collab was just Christian Nationalism, like Natalie lol.
At some point in the text it says she was Baptist (because baptism). But it was confusing because she talked about God a lot like Mormon people do (to my ear. I’m not Baptist or Mormon, but have done a lot of reading and documentary watching about evangelical movements and high
Control religious and cult groups).
There is much chatter about this with the Mormons I know! But she's definitely not convincingly Mormon. She doesn't talk like a Mormon and Mormons go to church and church things ALLLL the time.
Which...would have been good for Natalie, actually!
Would also love to hear more evangelicals or other Christians weigh in on this!
I thought Natalie was most relatable when she was at college and not fitting in at all with her (highly caricatured) roommates and floor mates. But I definitely related to wanting my own room and feel like I wasn’t part of the party. I feel like this era was under explored in the book, bc it was the origin story for everything else that came next
Such a good point! It is kind of the origin story. The origin story is trying to compete with other women! I loved that Reena is the foil for Natalie (and all the other Harvard girlies). Like, they are each trying to outdo each other in patriarchy, but in different ways. It's such a good depiction of the ways that patriarchy pits women against each other, and whether you girlboss or tradwife you just can't winnnnnn
So so true. No one was winning. Except maybe...Shannon? Shannon wins, right? It's unfortunate that she has sex with Caleb but I kind of think she and Clementine are the heros. What do you think?
Clementine is definitely the hero but also, why the heck did she take so long???
TOTALLY! So long!
There's a throwaway line about how Doug had finally been bankrupted and thus couldn't block Clementine saving the kids.
!!! Wow did not notice/remember! But why would he do that? To save face?? What a horrible dude!
That's my guess. Desperately trying to save his political career?
Can we talk about Shannon?? I don't get Shannon. What was her goal? Why the heck would she hook up with someone like Caleb? Was it bc she *wanted to bring them down, or??
I definitely think she was there as like the young "Angry Woman" -- someone to infiltrate that world and then bring it all down!
Interesting bc she doesn't start out that way! I actually loved that she was like the Gen Z woman who was looking for the third way --she and her friends at Barnard saw the 50's housewife as a fail, and feminism as a fail. She thought Natalie had "escaped" and figured out how to beat the system.
ahhhhhh
Okay also did anyone else think Caleb was going to turn out gay? Were we supposed to be thinking that because he was never into his wife? Honestly would have been so realistic in such a religious setting and given the shunning of his brothers… maybe that was too obvious of a place for Caro to go but I was kind of disappointed about it!! I really wanted him to be gay. lol
In reality he'd be gay or have some kind of "bad/immoral" (according to the church) sexual proclivity. I never figured out her fixation on his inability to get a full erection ... then we find out that wasn't even true (?). That struck me as weird and unresolved.
Haha why did this never occur to me?? It would TOTALLY track
clementine is the hero for me. Shannon not so much. I didn’t like Natalie, but I didn’t like Shannon either. Which also reminds me that the scene where Natalie chokes Shannon did not seem remotely sexual to me. Maybe I missed something? I’m commenting in a scattershot way because I’m at a hair appt and have time whole color is processing, but my thoughts are not organized yet.
It is unclear what actually happens bw Natalie and Shannon, right?! Natalie attacks her but unclear if it was actually SA in any way?
She definitely physically attacks her and we know that she has a history of it, bc she also jumps on Reena in college!
And the rape! What???
Which one? 😬
Ergh… yes. Sorry. When Natalie assaulted Shannon.
Ok but did she?? I mean did she sexually assault her? Unclear?
We haven't talked about the fact that CALEB is the one who creates the scandal that leads to their downfall, but that HIS WIFE is the one who takes the brunt of it.
In many ways this could be read as the story of a successful woman getting "womaned." Or basically, canceled. I found this pretty resonant w the backdrop of the Epstein Files, etc. even though Natalie is also problematic. Thoughts?
I devoured this book in under 5 hours. I could not stop reading. I then listened to the audible just for fun.
As a person, who at one point in my life (circa 2015-19) built a brand/business/image on Instagram & Facebook that allowed me to leverage that into a 6 figure income, I feel like I understood the ongoing internal monologue of how to curate every moment to fit the brand narrative.
It was exhausting in a way corporate burnout could never be.
Eventually the need/addiction/drive to maintain the brand drove me to some really unfortunate decisions, that at the time, felt unavoidable and led to the total unraveling of my life as I knew it.
Do I like Natalie? No. Did I understand her drive? Absolutely.
Wow, thanks for sharing! Could you say more about that? I think the ways that social media reflects/amplifies perfectionism, performance, self-surveillance is FASCINATING and under-discussed.
Even as just a "person on the internet" I sometimes feel like the need to post/get engagement/be in the DISCOURSE is making me into a person I don't want to be. But it feels so urgent?!
Thank you for this space and the great prompts!
I felt like the book started really strongly. I loved Reena as a foil, and it made me excited that the author was going to say something more nuanced than simply: Tradwives = BAD.
But the ending, in addition to feeling rushed, really left me feeling cold. I'm not sure I could detect a coherent take on why the author thinks so many women are drawn to trad-wifery. We never got to see Natalie reckon with her choices, to try and bridge the gap between "offline" and "online" self (which could have been really fertile terrain, I think.).
I'm not saying that Natalie needed to become a better person somehow, because novels don't have to be PSAs, but the sudden POV switch to the daughter meant we never actually found out the ending of Natalie's arc, of how she felt about it all. The ending kind of felt like a word cloud of buzzwords and hot topics: maternal mental health! the ire of influencer's kids! the darkside of social media! There was no detectable take, no thesis the author wanted us to come away with, which I felt was a real shame.
Thanks for being here, and thanks for bringing up the ENDING! Probably easily the most controversial part of the book. Interested to see what others say, but a lot of people I've talked to don't love the ending, or specifically the "twist."
It sounds like you're more interested in the final note/message of the book though, which is such a good question. I found the ending really resonant, in part for reasons that are deeply about me--haha. But isn't that how these things go?
I felt one way to read the ending was that this was a story about a woman who had been "womaned": an example of the public turning against a female celebrity who was previously adored. In this case, largely bc of the failings of men for whom she ofc takes the fall. Ex: Natalie is an ambitious young woman who finds that she married a guy who isn't going to bring in money or status, so she takes it upon herself to do so--she gets the money for the ranch, she sets up the ranch (while doing all the childcare), she becomes a celebrity!! and thereby rescues her family financially.
Then, her husband has an affair, and a scandal that he created brings everything down and her with it.
She's problematic for sure, but she's also in the end an abused woman who has been duped and gaslit in the extreme by her own husband, and whose children are also being gaslit and abused by her husband.
I kind of read it as the ultimate Yellow Wallpapering. And in the end she's the one who goes to prison, to boot.
Does that make sense?
Also, that's why I found the switch to Mary's pov in her book to be resonant, too. I actually loved that part! it felt like Mary knew both she and her mom had been abused and gaslit. It felt like she knew her mom was deeply problematic, but she knew that they had been through the same thing together and she understood how she came to be who she was. It felt like Mary offered her mother some grace.
Which--resonates so much with me bc often who we blame for the harms of patriarchy is our moms. For not protecting us, for not informing us, for not "winning" patriarchy the right way. For being damaged by it. I cried, actually! I called my mom after I finished the book :)
See, I like your interpretation of the ending, and my point is I'd like to have experienced it from Natalie's POV. Like we spend this whole book in her complicated (in a good way) interior life, and then it switches in the last few pages, which felt unfair! Even if she ended up bitter, angry, and in jail, feeling wronged by everyone but herself, realizing that there was no good path she could have taken even though she did everything right, I would have liked that ending more than what we got.
I understand maybe some authors want to "leave it up to the readers' interpretation" and are comfortable with people coming away with different feelings about the message. But frankly, I hate that haha.
Ha! I get that. I didn’t even think that deeply about the pov switch actually. But it is hard to know what Natalie is thinking in the end this way. And we have been in her head w her this whole time. This is why I love talking to other people about it! :)
Rosie, your comment ties into what I didn't like once I finished the book. While I was reading, I really loved the whole "is this time travel? is she being held captive? is this a reality TV show?" angle. But instead of letting her really grapple with what happened, it allowed the author to sidestep it all. It felt like, "Oops, you thought you'd get to see the characters grapple with what happened to them, but sorry! She's nuts! Oh, well, she deserved it." I got the sense that that "hook" was what sold the book, but at the same time, it was inevitably what kept the book from being a truly deep critique of the various characters' roles and of our society.
Why does Natalie become neglectful and abusive when she had been so focused on being perfect? Why does Caleb suddenly become a sex god once his wife is a confused basket case? Why do all the men around her (husband, kids, father-in-law) serve her madness instead of just locking her up? Or heck, be mensch and try to get her some help? Why don't her mother and sister do anything?
I really found the book intriguing until it became clear that the writer built in a conceit that kept her from having to make her characters face themselves and each other. I'm imagining a book where Natalie has shamed herself and her husband's family, she's miserable and friendless, and Reena turns up both to challenge her and offer her the friendship she wasn't able to accept the first time around. And yes, let poor Caleb be gay. Let him have some agency, the poor puppy.
Excellent story for our times, but the end just goes Hollywood rather than allowing it to become a truly great cultural critique. I'm surprised she didn't find a way to work in a shootout. 😸
I found the fact that the men are also ultimately unhappy and “destroyed” by patriarchy also interesting
This is so true. Patriarchy is really working for a very small percentage of people.
Maybe it works for Doug? But he still loses and his wife hates her life and do his kids even like him?
Like Natalie? No. Relate? YES! Come to think of it, I’m not entirely sure there was a character I did like. Maybe Maeve?
SAME! Can you say more about what you related to? I found her striving within patriarchy and trying to be alllll the things relatable, and to a point, even rational? (Obviously it goes way to far!)
I thought Natalie was most relatable when she was at college and not fitting in at all with her (highly caricatured) roommates and floor mates. But I definitely related to wanting my own room and feel like I wasn’t part of the party. I feel like this era was under explored in the book, bc it was the origin story for everything else that came next
I think Mary is the likeable one! She broke my heart. That endingggg. I can't even think of it without tearing up!
Omg oldest daughters and their mothers, and generational trauma. Ahhhhhh
Yes! I agree that role of eldest daughter and holding it all together was really well done here. And holding her mother’s secret that then then out to be a lie!
Yes, I thought of Mary too after I wrote that. “Omg oldest daughters and their mothers, and generational trauma. Ahhhhhh” Okay… yes. This. For sure.
I found Mary's grace at the very end so moving. Like, I literally called my mom!!
This was one of the most relatable depictions of postpartum depression I've ever read -- at least for my own experience. Those intense feelings of misery, confinement, alienation, disgust, pain, and exhaustion, when everything around you is screaming that you should be feeling blissful and enjoying the ultimate expression of womanhood.
Also the feelings of disconnection and non-belonging, like not ever being able to do or say quite the right thing, trying (and failing) to perform feminine "niceness." And those feelings prompting harsh judgmental thinking about myself and others.
Yes! I thought the postpartum depiction was so goooood. It reminded me of the Claire Daines character from "Fleishman is in Trouble" if you're familiar. Her post-partum and lack of care and medical trauma are her origin story and undoing.
One thing I wondered about Natalie was whether she really "hated her kids" or if she just hated how much of a failure she felt as a mother, so avoided it, given that she didn't "feel the way she was supposed to."
All those chapters of her alone with the baby breastfeeding and breastfeeding while Caleb does nothing and nobody pays attention to her OR the baby. And how that slowly starts to destroy her. RELATABLE.
Yeah! I think it's also possible she just...doesn't like kids or parenting very much? Which is totally fine! But because of all the pressure to perform motherhood that turned into resentment, avoidance, and ultimately abuse.
I thought it was interesting that she was able to connect with Maeve much more easily than any of her other children. There was a childlike, playful side to Natalie that we only glimpsed with Maeve ("let's make hats for the chickens!"). Now that I think about it, it seemed like no one in the novel was ever allowed to just play. Not Caleb, not the kids who needed to perform on social media, not Mary who had to run an entire nineteenth century homestead by herself, not Natalie who constantly had to perform gender.
Such a good point!! "it seemed like no one in the novel was ever allowed to just play. Not Caleb, not the kids who needed to perform on social media, not Mary who had to run an entire nineteenth century homestead by herself, not Natalie who constantly had to perform gender."
And maybe all of it was bc of performing gender? Maybe play is part of the antidote to performing gender altogether?! It certainly is a big part of queer culture!
I like to think the play/love came out as her performance started to drop and she was more present (whether she wanted to be or not!!)
100% agree with everything that you’ve both said about the depiction of motherhood/postpartum. I cried during that part because it resonated so much with me. The love for my babies came immediately but there was still resentment about motherhood and a feeling of being trapped, especially after the first kid. Even though I never would have admitted this to myself at the time in my Mormon brain, at some subconscious level I didn’t feel like I had any autonomy in the matter, which I think fueled a lot of those feelings.
Great point that Natalie was FORCED to be present with her kids in the “past”
I definitely felt some guilt about my use of the phone/social media while ignoring my child when I read some parts of this book!
The boys were allowed to play, but only if they were pretend fighting and shooting.
Hats for the chickens sounded dope, tbh, but it ended emotionally the way all my parenting whimsy does: torn up and covered with blood. :(
“And those feelings prompting harsh judgmental thinking about myself and others.” 💯
Girl. I often say that my self-righteousness is my most Mormon trait. Can't seem to shake it! haha.
The need to be good or right is so ingrained and manifests in so many different ways. Natalie is mostly trying to do right and be good and win at womanhood, which turns her into a monster. But she's trying so hard!!!!
I’m editing my memoir and I was feeling so emotional about that last night watching past me try SO HARD. And just making myself sicker and sicker. It’s a heartbreaking cycle.
I have a lot more compassion for my past self as time goes on. Which is maybe why I have some compassion for Natalie??
The self-righteous/self-hate combo really stands out. I think that’s a byproduct of the scrupulosity that she and I share. It’s an odd thing to see outside my own head. Absolutely yes, trying to be the perfect version of the patriarchal woman. I was a big patriarchy upholder in my previous life. And then never feeling like she fit in. Complicated feelings about motherhood. So many relatable qualities for me!
First of all, anyone here who found the "watching" and self-surveillance part very relatable and fascinating (ME), Brittney wrote a FANTASTIC essay on it that has been re-posted by Caro herself. You can read it here!: https://substack.com/home/post/p-194966538?selection=826c54f3-ee0c-436a-bd00-6d4e27f4463d#:~:text=The%20performance%20doesn%E2%80%99t%20need%20an%20audience%20to%20continue
The self-surveillance part was fascinating. I thought it was really well done the way she moved in and out of being "on" and off ONLINE Natalie, right, is how she referred to herself? And the ways that tied to the father in law's political campaigns and the "on/off" part of being a public figure.
I will say I cheered for her when she she had the upper hand with her POS father in law for a whole minute.
yes! And the "on off" of being a woman who is constantly masking and trying to perform "correctly." I actually saw this and the "watching herself" as possible disassociating. Which would help explain her later mental decline, too...
Thanks Lane! Let me tell you about my OCD brain’s glee at that level of validation lol
It is the bestttt. Love the essay, love this for you :)
In ways that are hard for me to even totally articulate, I feel like I am or have been versions of Natalie (not the celebrity part, or the abuser part, yikes). The realizing that you can't be safe/secure just being a wife or mother. The part where you work your ass off and exhaust yourself trying to hold yourself and your family up by working. The part where you realize you've married the wrong guy. The part where you realize maybe there IS no way to marry the right guy in patriarchy. The part where you realize you're going to take the fall no matter what you do.
“The realizing that you can't be safe/secure just being a wife or mother.” Didn’t this come as such a shock? I had so much shame with this feeling.
The shame!! We haven't even talked about all the shame that all the characters feel because of the expectations of their gender roles!
And yes, the shame is so relatable. Do you mean the shame that you can't make it work as just a wife/mother, or the shame that you'd been duped and ever thought it could?
My mother was so fulfilled by motherhood. That was the only understanding I had of how that worked. So for me it was shock, verging on horror when staying home with my baby had my sanity spiraling. Very heavy evidence of my brokenness. It was my highest calling. It’s what I was created to do! And I loved my baby obsessively. But I was MISERABLE. I only made it a couple months before I tearfully confessed to my husband that I had started sending out freelance queries. I said it like I was confessing to an affair. He was actually thrilled for me so then I judged him. 🤦♀️
Brittney I totally GROK U!
Did anyone else think about Running Out of Time by Margaret Peterson Haddix while reading this? I feel like this had to be made for women who read that as kids and then went on to have Deep Thoughts about feminism and patriarchy as adults (i.e., me).
I'm not familiar with this! Looking it up. What's it about?
As a very old feminist I am enjoying this conversation about a book I have not read for several reasons: The people responding are so thoughtful and respectful…
The author of this Substack is a wonderful listener and responds with great heart to those who express trouble in their lives… It is “nice” to hear even if indirectly ,that Religion has not caused all the evil in the world. Rev Dr Grandma
Thank you, this is such a kind and thoughtful comment!
I'm curious if anyone else found themselves wanting to better understand why Natalie thought the way she did? Religion, sure. But when and how did she get obsessed with the natural lifestyle of sourdough starter and raw milk?
I have heard people say that Caleb is “smarter than he seemed” but I don’t see it lol
Agree, haha.
Like, nobody wins! Even the guys who are “traditionally masculine “
The mere fact that all of it could have been avoided if only Natalie had LET CALEB BE A KINDERGARTEN TEACHER
The scenes of him happily playing with his kids -- and then later in the "old times" how he barely looks at the kids -- were just HEARTBREAKING
Right? Though I'm not sure Caleb had it in him to teach a curriculum or handle differentiated instruction or classroom management with an actual kindergarten class.... Maybe a teacher' aide?
Bahahaha. Agree. I don't think Caleb is "smarter than she thought." I think he was just as smart as she thought...hahaha. A mediocre white guy who keeps failing up or getting by at the cost of women around him.
I do wish he could have just been a dad or a (mediocre??) kindy teacher thought. It does seem like he could have been a great dad, if gender roles hadn't beat it out of him.
The part where he looks like he wants to play with his kids but stops himself...it broke my heart!! He probably would have loved being a SAHD.
Yes! And the fact that it's not himself, or a man, that cuts that off for him. It's a woman! The ways that woman also hold up the patriarchy.
But also, she stands to have a total loss of status if she doesn't "course correct" him, which is also relatable and not her fault--it's all the patriarchal conditioning and scripts that she's been given.
Teachers' Aide with a Trust Fund and everyone comes out without as many bear trap induced leg injuries sounds okay to me.
This is relatable and is the male equivalent to self surveillance that Natalie does. Playing w kids and doing caregiving for them is not “manly enough.” Then Caleb falls into the manosphere in part bc he’s a dumbass, but in part bc of his shame
I’m not sure about the ending. I need to mull it over more. Was she in a drug induced haze throughout their time in pretend 1800s world? Is that why she thought she had been kidnapped or tricked on a reality show? Apropos of nothing but this just in: Anne Hathaway licensed the rights to produce and star in a film adaption!
That was my take! She consciously decided to turn the house back to the 1850s, then took so many drugs she would forget.
Whew! What a refreshing change of focus and juxtaposition of patriarchy/matriarchy . . . both
aspects of Oligarchy and other received "GodSpells" of the "manmade" kind.
I am fascinated and a little worried by the readers who related to Natalie’s inner monologue. For most of the book I didn’t read it so literally as being the internalized control of high control religion or of performing for social media; I read it as the internalized control of fascism. Especially with the mantras and the self imposed thought control, it was very reminiscent of the Handmaid’s Tale (the novel) to me. And how those mantras turn into horror versions of what they say at face value. *It actually made me sick how perfect my life was / blessed be the fruit*.