Love this point about the indoor and outdoor bucket tasks, and who has flexibility and therefore gets to get a workout or finish writing a book chapter.
I also think about this a lot in terms of tasks that give you adult space vs. those that do not. Ex: Doing laundry or dishes lets you listen to a podcast or a book, and lay on the couch for a few minutes between loads and lets you feel like you're having some adult time. Caring for a small child for 3 hours will NOT give you the same freedom, and is much more depleting.
Yes I was really struck by the reminder that flexibility over time is a key area of imbalance — not so much income imbalance but the opportunities you have to pursue autonomy outside of the caregiving role.
I think “whether there’s enough energy around the issue that there might be systems change” is critical. I’ve noticed so many patterns like this in my own life with kids in primary school, but it often feels like no one else is as bothered, or sees the overall impact it can have. For example, the class chats are often made up of all moms, even after calling it out, little change was made. How can we get women and men to not only notice but to care?
Yes. This really struck me, too. I'm in the middle of an issue like this rn too (maybe we all are??) and 75% of the battle it seems is just getting other people to care enough to act with you.
I intentionally live in a progressive area, but I think people (including me) get tapped out and have to pick their battles. Also worried about making themselves unpopular (I'm new in this space and feel some of this tbh!). I also think there is an interesting thing in progressive circles where sometimes the language of inclusivity and empathy are used in a way that leads to neutrality and inaction--as in giving everyone empathy can lead to a lack of accountability kind of thing?
Curious what you and others think and what they are experiencing.
I asked this question of Kate since she’s also such a skilled facilitator of conversations. She really advises building allies — and finding out if you have any first. Otherwise, we will have to make a choice about how we use our time — to fight a battle solo or redirect energy somewhere else.
I asked this question of Kate since she’s also such a skilled facilitator of conversations. She really advises building allies — and finding out if you have any first. Otherwise, we will have to make a choice about how we use our time — to fight a battle solo or redirect energy somewhere else.
"I’m not an advocate, necessarily, for equal partnership. I’m an advocate for intentional decisions."
I love this way of putting it. Kate really gets at some of the major issues that I have seen between couples. It is really hard to explain to someone that you live with and are partners with that the problem isn't that they are willing to do whatever they are asked to do, but rather that they have to be asked. It puts the noticer in the position of being an enforcer, but that's not a fair position to put someone into.
Sociologist Allison Daminger writes about why men collapse when thrust into solo parenting, not because they can't perform the tasks, but due to the mental load of constant vigilance, the invisible load women carry, ie, the anticipatory responsibility. I like the term, The Noticer, too.
Thanks for reading! Yes I think what she says about bringing intention into who is deciding what can really help clarify how the roles in the household are weighted differently. So not just doing a thing when asked, but deciding what should be done, takes a toll.
The flexibility gap explains so much about who gets to have a hobby and who doesn't. If a task has to happen every day at a fixed hour, there is no room left for an uninterrupted chapter of a book or a pottery class that can only happen at the same time, while flexible tasks leave real room for exactly that kind of thing. Equal time is not just about equal hours, it is about equal claim on the hours that are actually ours to spend.
I agree, I think unequal partnership is never the goal and a lot of what we write and discuss here is "hetero-realism" along these lines. Like, what's the point of a partnership if it's not equal, why bother?
Advocating for unequal partnerships isn't the thesis here. The message here is more along the lines of some of the comments here--which is dividing up tasks "equally" doesn't mean actual equality unless you're doing it intentionally such that both partners have equal access to flexible and free time to spend as they wish.
It's exploring with more depth what "equal" looks like, and it's not just a checklist of tasks that looks fair on paper, but isn't in practice or daily life.
Thank you. I appreciate your patience that was a helpful take.
I have a defensive response to statements like ‘I’m not an equal partnership advocate’ it reminds of systems like ‘Fair Play’ that literally call themselves a system for promoting equity but also explicitly say they don’t care about equity.
And thanks for the comment! I have this same triggered response, so it's worth clarifying. The Michelle Obama clip about "marriage is never 50/50" haunts me--haha.
Maybe we should put equality in quotes here to avoid confusion. Like, it's only "equal" if it's actually intentional.
Love this point about the indoor and outdoor bucket tasks, and who has flexibility and therefore gets to get a workout or finish writing a book chapter.
I also think about this a lot in terms of tasks that give you adult space vs. those that do not. Ex: Doing laundry or dishes lets you listen to a podcast or a book, and lay on the couch for a few minutes between loads and lets you feel like you're having some adult time. Caring for a small child for 3 hours will NOT give you the same freedom, and is much more depleting.
Yes I was really struck by the reminder that flexibility over time is a key area of imbalance — not so much income imbalance but the opportunities you have to pursue autonomy outside of the caregiving role.
The indoor/outdoor tasks distinction is really important! I love this Lane. Thanks for the interview.
Thanks so much, Carley! Means a lot coming from you--this interview is actually by Allison :)
I think “whether there’s enough energy around the issue that there might be systems change” is critical. I’ve noticed so many patterns like this in my own life with kids in primary school, but it often feels like no one else is as bothered, or sees the overall impact it can have. For example, the class chats are often made up of all moms, even after calling it out, little change was made. How can we get women and men to not only notice but to care?
Such a great question Danielle. I have noticed this in our school community too!
Yes. This really struck me, too. I'm in the middle of an issue like this rn too (maybe we all are??) and 75% of the battle it seems is just getting other people to care enough to act with you.
I intentionally live in a progressive area, but I think people (including me) get tapped out and have to pick their battles. Also worried about making themselves unpopular (I'm new in this space and feel some of this tbh!). I also think there is an interesting thing in progressive circles where sometimes the language of inclusivity and empathy are used in a way that leads to neutrality and inaction--as in giving everyone empathy can lead to a lack of accountability kind of thing?
Curious what you and others think and what they are experiencing.
I asked this question of Kate since she’s also such a skilled facilitator of conversations. She really advises building allies — and finding out if you have any first. Otherwise, we will have to make a choice about how we use our time — to fight a battle solo or redirect energy somewhere else.
I asked this question of Kate since she’s also such a skilled facilitator of conversations. She really advises building allies — and finding out if you have any first. Otherwise, we will have to make a choice about how we use our time — to fight a battle solo or redirect energy somewhere else.
"I’m not an advocate, necessarily, for equal partnership. I’m an advocate for intentional decisions."
I love this way of putting it. Kate really gets at some of the major issues that I have seen between couples. It is really hard to explain to someone that you live with and are partners with that the problem isn't that they are willing to do whatever they are asked to do, but rather that they have to be asked. It puts the noticer in the position of being an enforcer, but that's not a fair position to put someone into.
Yes, I liked the term "the noticer"! Really speaks to an aspect of the mental load that needs a more precise name :)
Yes! Now we can notice when we are the ones noticing!
Ah, @Allison Lichter , I have been noticing that I’m noticing for so many years. 😺 But yes, it’s always comforting to have a name.
@Kate Mangino hipped me to that term! So helpful!
Sociologist Allison Daminger writes about why men collapse when thrust into solo parenting, not because they can't perform the tasks, but due to the mental load of constant vigilance, the invisible load women carry, ie, the anticipatory responsibility. I like the term, The Noticer, too.
Yes! Daminger’s work is cited heavily in the book. Such important research.
Thanks for reading! Yes I think what she says about bringing intention into who is deciding what can really help clarify how the roles in the household are weighted differently. So not just doing a thing when asked, but deciding what should be done, takes a toll.
The flexibility gap explains so much about who gets to have a hobby and who doesn't. If a task has to happen every day at a fixed hour, there is no room left for an uninterrupted chapter of a book or a pottery class that can only happen at the same time, while flexible tasks leave real room for exactly that kind of thing. Equal time is not just about equal hours, it is about equal claim on the hours that are actually ours to spend.
Yes! I love this re-framing. Not, how many tasks is each person doing, but how much free or flexible time does each person have every day/week?
Sincere question…why aren’t we advocating for equal partnerships? Can a relationship be termed a partnership if it’s not equal?
Maybe I’m missing something essential, but it seems to me like advocating for intentional decisions to engage in unequal relationships is really sad.
I agree, I think unequal partnership is never the goal and a lot of what we write and discuss here is "hetero-realism" along these lines. Like, what's the point of a partnership if it's not equal, why bother?
Advocating for unequal partnerships isn't the thesis here. The message here is more along the lines of some of the comments here--which is dividing up tasks "equally" doesn't mean actual equality unless you're doing it intentionally such that both partners have equal access to flexible and free time to spend as they wish.
It's exploring with more depth what "equal" looks like, and it's not just a checklist of tasks that looks fair on paper, but isn't in practice or daily life.
Thank you. I appreciate your patience that was a helpful take.
I have a defensive response to statements like ‘I’m not an equal partnership advocate’ it reminds of systems like ‘Fair Play’ that literally call themselves a system for promoting equity but also explicitly say they don’t care about equity.
And thanks for the comment! I have this same triggered response, so it's worth clarifying. The Michelle Obama clip about "marriage is never 50/50" haunts me--haha.
Maybe we should put equality in quotes here to avoid confusion. Like, it's only "equal" if it's actually intentional.
Thanks for this Lane — such a great elaboration on the point here!
I have found that the equal partner men who are "noticers" tend to be traumatized 😬